Veloreality proposes feature please respond

rncrowhurst
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Re: Veloreality proposes feature please respond

Post by rncrowhurst »

Probably a bit late but if this was optional then normalizing power would be a good addition bugt I doubt I would personally use it.

How would normalizing power on FTP alone equalize the playing field? When riding with others it seems that there are many variables as well as FTP that can influence the outcome. In VRide these would include gradient reduction and elimination of downhills. What about differences in wheel diameter setting?

The default setting on gradient reduction is 7-10% as I recall. I use 10-15% which would mean that two people of similar FTP would not cover the same course in the same time if the gradient exceeds 10% (in this example one uses 7-10%, the other uses 10-15%). Similarly I eliminate downhills to make the downhills 0%. Again if some one sets their downhill to -3% then this setting affects virtual speed. How would these differences be normalized?

To give an example I rode Almeria first with 10-15% and -1% downhill with FTP of 259 then the next time I rode it with 10-15% gradient reduction but with 0% downhill. After 45 minutes of staying ahead by increasing my lead (over my prior performance) on each uphill (very pleasing to do this) but loosing a bit on each downhill with over the first ride (working harder downhill as its "flat" in the second time on the route) my prior effort's virtual circle went past and there was simply no way to stay ahead on this undulation route. The downhill setting of -1% made a difference. Same rider same/similar FTP but two different elimination of downhill settings and the out come is predictable.

Parameters like gradient reduction and elimination of decent therefore can influence outcomes and since multi rider currently does not show what each riders setting are two riders with the same FTP but different gradient settings will not ride equally (or will the neutralizing also change the gradient and elimination of downhill settings to equalise them as well?) Having the option to neutralize the playing field would be interesting but how would normalizing on FTP alone counter the differences in speed that can accrue from different elimination of decent settings unless a raced route was only uphill?

I tend to agree with Might Mac that its fun to ride against other riders real metrics. If you can chase them down you do feel good and if they get away its just the way it is in real life too. So having the setting as an option as you have planned is good. We can use it or not and feel good about it either way.
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Re: Veloreality proposes feature please respond

Post by admin »

rncrowhurst wrote:Probably a bit late but if this was optional then normalizing power would be a good addition bugt I doubt I would personally use it.

How would normalizing power on FTP alone equalize the playing field? When riding with others it seems that there are many variables as well as FTP that can influence the outcome. In VRide these would include gradient reduction and elimination of downhills. What about differences in wheel diameter setting?

The default setting on gradient reduction is 7-10% as I recall. I use 10-15% which would mean that two people of similar FTP would not cover the same course in the same time if the gradient exceeds 10% (in this example one uses 7-10%, the other uses 10-15%). Similarly I eliminate downhills to make the downhills 0%. Again if some one sets their downhill to -3% then this setting affects virtual speed. How would these differences be normalized?

To give an example I rode Almeria first with 10-15% and -1% downhill with FTP of 259 then the next time I rode it with 10-15% gradient reduction but with 0% downhill. After 45 minutes of staying ahead by increasing my lead (over my prior performance) on each uphill (very pleasing to do this) but loosing a bit on each downhill with over the first ride (working harder downhill as its "flat" in the second time on the route) my prior effort's virtual circle went past and there was simply no way to stay ahead on this undulation route. The downhill setting of -1% made a difference. Same rider same/similar FTP but two different elimination of downhill settings and the out come is predictable.

Parameters like gradient reduction and elimination of decent therefore can influence outcomes and since multi rider currently does not show what each riders setting are two riders with the same FTP but different gradient settings will not ride equally (or will the neutralizing also change the gradient and elimination of downhill settings to equalise them as well?) Having the option to neutralize the playing field would be interesting but how would normalizing on FTP alone counter the differences in speed that can accrue from different elimination of decent settings unless a raced route was only uphill?

I tend to agree with Might Mac that its fun to ride against other riders real metrics. If you can chase them down you do feel good and if they get away its just the way it is in real life too. So having the setting as an option as you have planned is good. We can use it or not and feel good about it either way.
When determining your current speed Veloreality only uses you Power, Weight, Road Grade, Crr, CdA. Normalizing Power and Weight (Crr and CdA assumed the same for everyone) will make people more or less equal. Gradient reduction may affect what the grade feels like but not your speed at particular road grade. So barring level of exertion you're willing to produce as a percentage of your FTP will be the only thing that can have you "win"/"loose"
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HHRoadtrip
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Re: Veloreality proposes feature please respond

Post by HHRoadtrip »

Veloreality proposes to use "reported" Power and "reported" Weight, so this optional power equalization will never be precise. Still, the proposal greatly reduces one of the largest barriers to finding fellow riders. Without such an option, the rider with an FTP of 210W would need to find riders in the 190W- 230W range- and it's not easy to learn the FTP of other riders. If normalized power were available, that same 210W rider could conceivably ride with a 110W rider as easily as he could ride with a 300W rider. This may not be appealing to some riders- keep the default as "Normalize power?- No".
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Re: Veloreality proposes feature please respond

Post by VeloReality Video »

Sounds a bit like in Horse racing they add extra weights to the faster horses to make the outcome less predictable. How about using weight to level the playing ground? its mainly on the hills that the differences in form open up. If you use W/kg & then have a way at some point to display the extra weight your carrying along for the ride....it could be quite a status symbol to have 50kg extra. Extra weight also reduces your speed on the flat as its bundled in with mass. I think simply adding extra weight as a handicap would be very easy for every cyclist to understand also....we all want the lightest bike for a reason...
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Re: Veloreality proposes feature please respond

Post by admin »

VeloReality Video wrote:Sounds a bit like in Horse racing they add extra weights to the faster horses to make the outcome less predictable. How about using weight to level the playing ground? its mainly on the hills that the differences in form open up. If you use W/kg & then have a way at some point to display the extra weight your carrying along for the ride....it could be quite a status symbol to have 50kg extra. Extra weight also reduces your speed on the flat as its bundled in with mass. I think simply adding extra weight as a handicap would be very easy for every cyclist to understand also....we all want the lightest bike for a reason...
It seems like you people did not really read the original post. The following things work in new mode

1) Your weight is normalized. It will be always assumed to be 70kg.
2) Your power will be normalized as well at let's say 85% of your reported FTP.
3) CdA, Crr etc will be assumed the same.
4) At this point you will be faced with just road grade and your perceived
level of exertion as a variable.

So if you did not lie on reported FTP the whole bunch will be going exactly the same speed assuming they are riding at the same level of exertion and are at the seme point on the road. One can still of course crank out a nice sprint and leave competitors in a dust or ride closer to an FTP level of exertion to the same effect.

Adding "virtual bricks" will not work because it effect is different depending on road grade.
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