Generic ANT+ signal drops

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admin
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Generic ANT+ signal drops

Post by admin »

1) Notice the term generic. For anything related to signal drops while using KICKR read BETTER SUPPORT AND KICKR FAQ post at http://veloreality.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=35
2) [Make sure when you "Learn"/Pair your ANT+ devices you click "Save" button in ANT+ devices section. If you did not click "Save: the software will keep scanning for new sensors and this will cause drop outs
3) Make sure that if you paired to any ANT+ sensor other then KICKR that they're present an active. If any sensor were previously paired with and not currently active (low battery/whatever else) the software will keep scanning for that sensors and it will cause drops on other channels.
4) Try to avoid ANT+ SUUNTO MOVESTICK MINI. It does not have good radio and leads to frequent intermittent transmission loss. We have contacted couple of other software vendors and they confirmed the same. Use ANTUSB-m stick from Garmin. Place stick as close as possible to your ANT+ sensors. Use USB extension cable if needed. ANTUSB-m stick from Garmin can be ordered from our online store or from many other online vendors.
5) If you have to use long USB cable to place ANT+ stick closer to your sensors/KICKR try to get so called ACTIVE USB EXTENSION cable or USB 3.0 cables, Not the regular USB 2.0 ones. They're plentiful on Amazon and other online retailer sites.
6) Try to avoid ANT+ B'TWIN speed/cadence sensor http://www.thisisant.com/directory/btwi ... ate-sensor. At least 2 customers reported signal drops from these sensors. The drops disappeared when the sensors were replaces with ANT+ Garmin GSC 10 sensor: http://www.thisisant.com/directory/gsc- ... ke-sensor/
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piotrekk8
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Re: Generic ANT+ signal drops

Post by piotrekk8 »

I'm disappointed, because I have followed all steps mentionen in the post above but VeloReality keeps resetting the speed when ANT+ "reconnects" or maybe just loses a data packet.
It spoils the whole riding in Video mode, since every time the speed resets you just have to wait about 1 minute to gain your speed back.

I don't think it's an ANT+ issue. The ANT+ transmitters don't have to deliver every single data frame to the receivers.

It's clearly a major bug. If I knew that I wouldn't buy any videos. It's even more annoying if you know how to fix that.
If VeloReality was Open Source people would fix that within days :!:

Hope, you will fix this soon in the upcoming release :!:
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admin
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Re: Generic ANT+ signal drops

Post by admin »

I'm disappointed, because I have followed all steps mentionen in the post above but VeloReality keeps resetting the speed when ANT+ "reconnects" or maybe just loses a data packet.

1) Read "BETTER SUPPORT AND KICKR FAQ" thread. There is way more info on signal drops with KICKR and how to fix it: http://veloreality.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=35 and it includes some info from users as well.
2) There was a bug introduced I believe in version 1.2.0.90. Make sure to update software to 1.9.0.92 if you did not do so already.
3) Do a google search on KICKR "signal drops". Plenty of cases, info, feedback and fixes

I don't think it's an ANT+ issue. The ANT+ transmitters don't have to deliver every single data frame to the receivers.
And I do not reset connection after every dropped packet. The software starts re-scan on channel if no packet comes after 5 seconds since the last one.

If VeloReality was Open Source people would fix that within days :!:
I can see that on open sourced Golden Cheetah example, within days, sure :twisted: Loosing connection with KICKR is generic problem ( again do a Google search on KICKR "signal drops" if you do not believe) that affects some percentage of users. It can be fixed in most cases and yet in some rare cases (too much RF interference for example) one can not really do much about it.

Hope, you will fix this soon in the upcoming release
Not very likely. This particular piece of code was heavily reviewed and there does not seem anything really wrong about it. If steps 1 and/or 2 mentioned above would not fix it for you it usually means that your RF environment in a place you train is not very friendly

It's clearly a major bug. If I knew that I wouldn't buy any videos.
If that's what you want send me an email ( kostya@veloreality.com ), I will refund your videos, case closed.
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piotrekk8
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Re: Generic ANT+ signal drops

Post by piotrekk8 »

I think you misundestood me.
I don't have KICKR, just basic spd/cad and hrm sensors from Garmin.
VeloReality is a great piece of software otherwise I wouldn't be using it. The functionality of creating own workouts, hd video quality, etc is great. However, there is one thing that is annoying.
admin wrote:
And I do not reset connection after every dropped packet. The software starts re-scan on channel if no packet comes after 5 seconds since the last one.
The problem is not the loss of packages, but how you handle it.
For ex. if the connection drops and reestablishes after short time:
1) VeloReality shows power in realtime - no problem here
2) speed is dropped to 0 and since VeloReality is simulating acceleration and deceleration you have to wait (spinning at constant power) to get your speed back to that point before it was reset.

I might be wrong, but I think it should work a bit like my GPS software.
When the connection to the GPS satellite is lost, my GPS "assumes" I'm continuing to drive at last known speed... At least for a while until my GPS reconnects.
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Re: Generic ANT+ signal drops

Post by admin »

piotrekk8 wrote:I think you misundestood me.
I don't have KICKR, just basic spd/cad and hrm sensors from Garmin.
VeloReality is a great piece of software otherwise I wouldn't be using it. The functionality of creating own workouts, hd video quality, etc is great. However, there is one thing that is annoying.
admin wrote:
And I do not reset connection after every dropped packet. The software starts re-scan on channel if no packet comes after 5 seconds since the last one.
The problem is not the loss of packages, but how you handle it.
For ex. if the connection drops and reestablishes after short time:
1) VeloReality shows power in realtime - no problem here
2) speed is dropped to 0 and since VeloReality is simulating acceleration and deceleration you have to wait (spinning at constant power) to get your speed back to that point before it was reset.

I might be wrong, but I think it should work a bit like my GPS software.
When the connection to the GPS satellite is lost, my GPS "assumes" I'm continuing to drive at last known speed... At least for a while until my GPS reconnects.
In this case (no KICKR) I would just simply:

1) Check your batteries.
2) Move ANT+ stick as close as possible to your sensors (use USB extension cable for that). Out of thousands of customers you are the only one to have reported problem with regular ANT+ sensors. I am pretty sure steps 1 and 2 should bring you to good state.

Personally after executing steps 1 and 2 I've never ever had signal drops from my Power Meter and or GSC-10. My ANT+ stick is on USB extension cable and is placed close to BB of my bike.
And do not ignore step 1. Head unit for example might be better at catching weak signals then ANT+ stick.
Let me know if it works for you. If not you might have to get LIVE SUPPORT (read the appropriate topic on how to get one)
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piotrekk8
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Re: Generic ANT+ signal drops

Post by piotrekk8 »

So I've chaned my batteries, but it didn't help. I've also put my ANT+ stick close to my BB, but it didn't help that much. I've also checked that the magnets are as close to the sensors as possible...

I have recored a video on how it resets the speed over and over again...
http://youtu.be/S6VKejs9ebo

What else can I do?
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Re: Generic ANT+ signal drops

Post by admin »

piotrekk8 wrote:So I've chaned my batteries, but it didn't help. I've also put my ANT+ stick close to my BB, but it didn't help that much. I've also checked that the magnets are as close to the sensors as possible...

I have recored a video on how it resets the speed over and over again...
http://youtu.be/S6VKejs9ebo

What else can I do?
I see. It is interesting and I might have some idea on what can be causing it. But I am not going to play guessing game on a forum. I need to check it live, possibly issue test fix in place and see if it works. So contact me by Skype at your convenience. Skype ID is poukhov_kostya. Also before you do download and install free Team Viewer from http://www.teamviewer.com prior to contacting so I can see exactly what's going on during the experiment.
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ralph j
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Re: Generic ANT+ signal drops

Post by ralph j »

I do have occasional drops but that is not what concerns me.

I am having a similar problem to the one shown with recovery after drops or restarts.

When climbing, speed recovery is amazingly slow and simply not correct. I had a drop out at about 50 minutes ~6.9miles into the Tourmalet yesterday. My wattage continued at about 210, my cadence stayed at about 60rpm my heart rate stayed at about 1420, the slope was more or less constant 8-9%, and my speed before and after the drop was:
min mph
-0:30 5.8
0:00 0.0
0:30 1.8
1:00 3.3
1:30 4.6
2:00 5.0
2:30 5.3
3:00 5.5
4:00 5.7

Anyway, the drop was instantaneous, and would not have been a problem. The dropout recovery and the recovery in general on stops on uphills is not correct. It is not at all related to crank speed or any other factor. Sprinting up to +400watts which would get me back really fast in real life, does not seem to effect it either.

This is from a Kickr so I think the response could be modeled well if the math were corrected.

Anyway, still love the product, and have all the 2013 courses completed at least once, except the Appleby's and Motirolo.

Thanks
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Re: Generic ANT+ signal drops

Post by admin »

ralph j wrote:When climbing, speed recovery is amazingly slow and simply not correct
2 Cases here. If grade reduction is not involved (numbers are green color on odometer) then speed is calculated by KICKR. If there is a grade clamping (numbers on odometer are reddish) then we calculate speed from your wattage. what is sort if impossible is to calculate your instant acceleration. KICKR does not supply all needed data with needed speed to do that. So we just guess. So we'll try to handle this case better. But later. Now too busy. Releasing Internet racing soon
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ralph j
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Re: Generic ANT+ signal drops

Post by ralph j »

admin wrote:
ralph j wrote:When climbing, speed recovery is amazingly slow and simply not correct
2 Cases here. If grade reduction is not involved (numbers are green color on odometer) then speed is calculated by KICKR. If there is a grade clamping (numbers on odometer are reddish) then we calculate speed from your wattage. what is sort if impossible is to calculate your instant acceleration. KICKR does not supply all needed data with needed speed to do that. So we just guess. So we'll try to handle this case better. But later. Now too busy. Releasing Internet racing soon
I did have the grade reduction on. I climbed about 1300ft with between 7% and 15% grades, mostly in the 10% range, on a real local hill today. I thought I'd give myself a compact crank for Tourmalet with about 3x that much gain. I never noticed the problem before because I usually have the reduction set so high that it is never active.

After your post, I tried it again and found that the kickr itself, does not do this. From the ride today, In real life I find I am back up to speed on steep slopes in a couple of seconds, which makes sense since the power to PE gain is so much higher than the inertial acceleration.

I guess I should be fine without the grade reduction.

Thanks
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